Joey Thurman:
Dr. Abbie Smith-Ryan. I'm just going to call you Abbie because you told me to call you Abbie. Thank you for coming on Talking Plant Protein.

Dr. Abbie Smith-Ryan:
Thanks for having me. Yeah, happy to be here.

Joey Thurman:
So you have a lot of initials behind your name: PhD, CSCS. You've got a bunch of different stuff, and you're at University of North Carolina Chapel Hill as well, so much better than-

Dr. Abbie Smith-Ryan:
Just means I'm a nerd.

Joey Thurman:
But it's a good nerd, right? It's a fun type of nerd because nutrition and exercise science, you do a lot of things. What's a typical day like for you?

Dr. Abbie Smith-Ryan:
Every day is different, which is a good thing, but I run a research lab where we conduct science on all these types of products and different type of exercise. So I'm in the lab collecting data with humans, so gathering numbers and then working on grants, trying to find money to pay for those studies and then writing papers. So that brings the data to life.

Joey Thurman:
Okay, so trying to find money is a big part of your job. I know a lot of times with research and especially the professors that I know, they're always trying to get the money. And you were a part of the team that helped formulate the Ladder supplement products.

Dr. Abbie Smith-Ryan:
Yeah. So I got to work with Adam Bornstein and provide some of the science behind those formulations, which was great.

Joey Thurman:
So why get involved with a supplement company? Because I think probably a lot of people are coming at you to do these different things, and you're involved with all sort of different companies and trying to get the money and exercise science. Why specifically get involved with Ladder?

Dr. Abbie Smith-Ryan:
Yeah, Ladder's a unique company. I have worked with lots of different companies on formulation, but Ladder is unique in that it really took the evidence and put it into the products. So we were able to take what we know works based on the science and put that into the product. A lot of companies often don't want to spend the money or don't take the time to utilize that science to actually create a product that is based on evidence. And so, we were able to do that and see the formulation through, and the fact that they're third-party tested, what you see is what you get. So there's that level and the education piece, the idea that we can take the products and tell you also why and how you should use them.

Joey Thurman:
Yeah, that's great because it's NSF certified, which a lot of these supplements aren't as well. So it's completely safe to take for athletes because I think a lot of athletes are really concerned about what's in there, and they're doing all sorts of actually drug testing as well. So these are completely safe for any athlete to take, correct?

Dr. Abbie Smith-Ryan:
They're completely safe, not even for athletes, but non-athletes, as well as there's not a lot of extra ingredients. So when you look at the packaging, one of my favorite parts is that what's in the product is actually is listed on the label. There's not a lot of added flavors, ingredients, or added ingredients that you can't understand. The things in there have a purpose and they're evidence based.

Joey Thurman:
So how long did it take to formulate some of these products, and what's the process with that?

Dr. Abbie Smith-Ryan:
Some of the conversations.... So the company was founded based on some of what LeBron wanted. And so, some of the initial products, I guess not the products, but some of the ideas were formulated a while ago. And then it took several years to take all of the science and work with the manufacturers to bring it to life, and even now the fun part is it's always going through reiterations. There's some version twos that we'll launch in August and later as we have more science and even have better suppliers of some of those ingredients. So it's this continual process, which I think is cool as a scientist, because now you can update those products based on the current evidence and the technology.

Joey Thurman:
Well, that's nice. So you're able to implement the science at a relatively quick pace because this company is obviously well funded. So it's nice to take those ingredients and put them in there when new research comes about.

Dr. Abbie Smith-Ryan:
Yeah, it takes a little bit longer. We've been working on version twos for over a year. So by the time you implement them, change it, flavor, manufacture, it takes a while, but much faster than some other companies.

Joey Thurman:
Several different products that Ladder has: greens, electrolytes, pre-workout, and then the protein. Obviously this is Talking Plant Protein, so I want to talk about all of them but specifically the protein. Why do we as humans really need protein?

Dr. Abbie Smith-Ryan:
Yeah, protein is essential. So when we think about essential amino acids, the amino acids are building blocks of protein. Your body cannot make them, whereas you can make glucose. So carbohydrates aren't "essential". So proteins are important for hair, skin and nails, every cell in the body really, and we can't create them by ourselves.

Joey Thurman:
And specifically with the plant-based protein that Ladder has, what makes that so good because for years it used to be thought that we need to have whey protein, but now it's coming out that plant protein can be a very good source of protein.

Dr. Abbie Smith-Ryan:
Yeah, so I think the important thing to realize is that protein is important, and we can get that through lots of different sources. When we look at the data, whey is still the best quality of protein, but there's a lot of reasons we might not take whey for intolerances and animal rights. There's lots of different reasons. So the science and the technology has caught up with plant proteins in that if formulated correctly, we can get all of our essential amino acids in a plant-based protein and still get a lot of the healthy fibers and phytonutrients that you would get from a plant that aren't always in a whey.

Joey Thurman:
Right, that makes sense because often the wheys don't have the fiber or the additional ingredients in there, and so it's a nice option for people. What are the recommendations for your average individual as far as protein intake versus maybe somebody who's maybe an athlete at UNC?

Dr. Abbie Smith-Ryan:
Yeah, protein intake so much depends on someone's goals, but I would say a good, good general rule of thumb is one gram per pound of body weight is a good starting point. And if you have someone that's higher volume, I would say a lot of times it comes in more on timing protein to take it before and after exercise, before bed. And then the other really big thing that I think is often overlooked is the amount to take at a single time, and really the science suggests about 30 grams evenly space throughout the day is what you want to shoot for. Now, if you're a 300-pound male, you can consume more than 30 grams, but that's kind of the minimum threshold. So when you ask me how much protein, I would say timing matters first, and then it might just depend on how many boluses that you have throughout the day.

Joey Thurman:
Okay. So someone jacked like myself, I may need a little bit more?

Dr. Abbie Smith-Ryan:
Well, it goes back to there's this misconception of how much protein you can really digest in a single setting. You can digest more than 30 grams. Would it be worthwhile to consume 70 grams? Probably not. More worthwhile to have another feeding of let's say 50. And then it comes down to goals. If you are trying to build mass and lose fat, then you want to have a higher protein intake, and if you want to really focus on recovery, then you really should think about timing your proteins before and after exercise.

Joey Thurman:
What about people that work out in the morning, does it matter if they're working out fasted, whether it's cardio or a weight training, or should they get a protein source or carbohydrate source in beforehand? What makes the most sense?

Dr. Abbie Smith-Ryan:
Yeah, that's a great question. Well, one, I would say it matters more if you're a female to not do fasted cardio, so an exercise. So if we're talking about one time, not a big deal, but cumulatively, we know that eating prior to exercise can be advantageous for fat use and for building muscle. And really a lot of the science, even from my lab, shows that you should have a bolus of protein or a serving of protein versus a serving of carbohydrate opposed to fasting.

Joey Thurman:
Okay, yeah because before it used to be thought that you need to have some pasta or bread or something before working out. Now the research is saying that they're leaning more towards just having protein.

Dr. Abbie Smith-Ryan:
Yeah. So a lot of data shows that if you eat something, you're going to burn more fat and more calories during and after your exercise. Now, if you're an athlete and you're trying to put on weight, you might want to rethink that a little bit. But the protein prior to influences a lot of things with recovery, energy expenditure, fat utilization, and even immune function. Now, if I'm an endurance athlete and I'm trying to exercise for a long period of time, you would want to throw in that carbohydrate and protein.

Joey Thurman:
Okay, that makes sense. Is that more of a faster absorbing one that you would go to? What source of carbohydrate protein would people who are trying to focus on endurance? Is there a specific type that they should go for?

Dr. Abbie Smith-Ryan:
Well, that's where supplementation comes in due to absorption, so some sort of carbohydrate source and a easily digested protein. There's a lot of different ways you could do that depending on preference. It could be a milk based, it could be a Gatorade-based type of carbohydrate, anything easily digested. There's a lot of data on what type of carbohydrate, but maybe we save that for another day.

Joey Thurman:
Yeah, I wish I would get there. Yeah, there's just so much information. I'm sure that you get thrown these questions all the time, but basically having some sort of quick digesting protein source, or if you have a Ladder plant protein within, was it 20, 30 minutes before, or is there a specific timing that matters really if you're having that quick digesting?

Dr. Abbie Smith-Ryan:
Most of it just depends on GI system, but yeah, 20, 30 minutes, up to an hour or two hours is kind of the ideal window.

Joey Thurman:
Okay, and what about these other products that Ladder has? You have the pre-workout and the greens and the electrolytes. How important is that to get those in during a day?

Dr. Abbie Smith-Ryan:
Yeah, I guess it depends on the goals of the individual. A pre-workout, I mean, there's lots of pre-workouts on the market, but I would say this one's a little bit different based on the ingredients and of the evidence in there. You'll see that the amounts are much different than everything else on the market, that they're dosed in the amount that they will actually work. Do you need a pre-workout? Probably not. But does it help? Absolutely.

Dr. Abbie Smith-Ryan:
And then something like the electrolytes, the hydration beverage is really helpful, particularly now it's hot. So if you are someone that's exercising outside, sweating a lot, we do need carbohydrates and electrolytes to help replenish that fluid. One of my favorite products is the greens. I get tons of vegetables. I don't have to drink them, but there's some good ingredients in there. Rhodiola helps with concentration and just a well around... I like to use it as a multivitamin, just a safe hold in case you missed something. And it's, again, an all natural, you know what's in there, it's coming from high-quality plant-based sources.

Joey Thurman:
Yeah, I'll take that one more as a shot because sometimes those greens ones, I know they're very good for you, but sometimes the things that are really good for you just like, you got to get them down.

Dr. Abbie Smith-Ryan:
I like to mix it with my vanilla protein. It has that matcha flavor, but yeah, not something you sit here [crosstalk 00:11:57].

Joey Thurman:
I did it one time with the pre-workout, the greens and the electrolytes. I just shook it up and I just took it down. It was interesting.

Dr. Abbie Smith-Ryan:
Interesting I'm sure, yeah. Yeah, you got to have a chaser after that, I'm sure.

Joey Thurman:
Yeah, I had to rinse my mouth out a little bit, but it was okay. What does a typical day look like for you in what you're eating?

Dr. Abbie Smith-Ryan:
Ooh, I keep it pretty simple. I have two kids. I work a lot. Just really a protein base followed with some veggies evenly spaced throughout the day. So most of my diet is plants, but I get a lot of animal-based protein sources that they're just easier, higher quality.

Joey Thurman:
Okay, that makes sense. Now, where do you see as far as plant-based nutritionist heading? It's no longer just seems something that a small percentage of individuals are doing. It's a huge market now, especially in the industry. Where do you see it headed as far as sports nutrition is headed?

Dr. Abbie Smith-Ryan:
Yeah. I mean, I think it's great that people are aware of increasing the plant intake because we know that comes with so many health benefits. I think education is going to be important in that there's a lot of misconception about plants. There's a lot of plant-based products that are highly processed, and as we get into specific plants, if I just pick a specific plant protein, you're lacking a lot of the essential amino acids. So formulation is really important, and so that's one thing we really targeted with the Ladder products.

Dr. Abbie Smith-Ryan:
So for example, you need about three grams of leucine to be really supporting muscle protein synthesis and muscle recovery, and not very many plant-based products on the market even consider that and it's hard to do that. And so usually what I say is, if you are doing a plant based protein, you usually need two servings, sometimes three or four based on some of the things that are on the market, to get enough of those in amino acids. So my best recommendation is to diversify. Plant based proteins are great, but it's hard to totally counteract all of the animal-based high-quality proteins. So I see that continual change in technology and awareness of what am I actually eating, and is it really that healthy, even though it's a plant based?

Joey Thurman:
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Where can people find out more information about you and Ladder?

Dr. Abbie Smith-Ryan:
Ladder has a great website that's continually revamping. I have a nerdy website, an Instagram that I try and keep up with with science. So I'm @asmithryan, and that's Instagram and Twitter.

Joey Thurman:
I like the nerdy websites. I appreciate that.

Dr. Abbie Smith-Ryan:
I try.

Joey Thurman:
All right, Abbie, thank you so much for coming on Talking Plant Protein, and I really appreciate it.

Dr. Abbie Smith-Ryan:
Thanks for the time. Happy to chat.