Nicole Astra:
Welcome to Talk Session on Talking Plant Protein. I'm Nicole Astra, and today we are talking Chick-Innovation Showcase. I have three real powerhouses in the hot seat tonight. They are going to be featured at Future Food-Tech San Francisco, and I'm looking very forward to what they have for us there. Martin Habfast with Umiami, Tyler Huggins with Meati Foods, and Jessica Schwabach with Sundial. So Jessica, let's start with you. What can we expect out of the three of you at the showcase for Future Food-Tech?

Jessica Schwabach:
So we're actually going to be doing a cooking competition together called Step-Up to the Plate. I have no idea what the other two are up to, very excited to see it. For us, honestly, we haven't planned either. But our main focus right now is chicken wings, which we'll launch next year. There'll be something around that.

Nicole Astra:
So your chicken wings are getting a lot of press and really shaking things up because of their texture, their presentation. So this whole race to the whole cut, to the center of the plate is truly fascinating. So Tyler, a unique perspective from you is what's your protein?

Tyler Huggins:
Yeah, so we use mycelium or also known as mushroom roots. That's our core sort of ingredient, makes up nearly 98% of our products. Not only does it provide all the complete protein equal to animal-based products, all the iron, all the vitamin Bs, but also brings in fiber and vitamins and minerals that you would only find in plants. And then it's textured. So it's able to replicate the same sort of eating experience, same fiber, texture, same juice that you'd find in an animal-based meat and cooks up very similarly as well.

Nicole Astra:
And Martin, how about you? Let's talk a little bit about your technology because you were one of the first to offer a larger cut.

Martin Habfast:
Yeah, exactly. So actually, we started the company with a very simple observation, which is that when you look at the animal protein that people consume, it's largely whole muscle pieces, right? Like a chicken breast, for instance. But when you look at plant-based meat substitutes, well, they're mostly minced or chopped pieces. And the reason is actually quite easy. It's because technologically, it's so hard to recreate the complex fiber structure of meat using plant proteins. And current technologies, like dry extrusion or high moisture extrusion, they don't allow you to recreate those thick pieces and the complex fiber alignment. So with that in mind, what we basically did is we created a proprietary protein texturization technology that allows us to start with ingredients that are super simple, just like water and proteins, and to recreate that fiber's nest that people love about meat.

Nicole Astra:
So anybody else want to weigh in on technology? Tyler, you're more building that whole cut experience, correct?

Tyler Huggins:
Yeah. So my co-founder and I, we come from an academic background. We both got our PhDs here in Boulder. So we're definitely techno-optimists and believe in the power of technology, but we really wanted to look into nature for inspiration. So for us, it was actually just harnessing a natural process, something that occurs in nature, and then bring it indoors where we can make sure it's pure and clean and safe and highly nutritious. And it really just guides this natural process in order to produce a product that is of high value, high nutrition, and provides a really sort of delicious cooking and eating experience.

Nicole Astra:
Jessica, how about at Sundial?

Jessica Schwabach:
First of all, I really like that both of the other two mentioned focusing on simple ingredients and trying to take things more or less back to basics with the starting material. I think that's a super important change for the industry that we're all hoping to emphasize in the future. For Sundial, one of the things that we're exploring is the ability to recreate more aspects of the organoleptic experience that make people truly enjoy eating meat. So going back to my very specific example, because it's all I think about these days, of chicken wings, one of the most important aspects of eating chicken wings for the consumer is often the feeling of the skin, especially the crispy notes of the skin.

Jessica Schwabach:
There's actually a chicken wing eating contest in New York that focuses very specifically on which chicken wing has the best skin. And it's something that plant-based meats don't have yet, the ability to go beyond just, as Martin saying, the [inaudible 00:04:39] meat texture and add in these other aspects that make meat truly enjoyable and something that consumers crave and want over and over again. So we're trying to add back in these sort of complex textures and layers that give the consumer, when they're taking one bite, a variety of experiences that are more interesting.

Nicole Astra:
And what I really like that the three of you are doing, I've posed the question in the past, "Is the whole cut desire holding us back nutritionally?" But you just mentioned, we're really wanting to choose ingredients, keep the manufacturing clean. And I think that that's so important. I don't want to lose sight of all of those things because we're trying to create something that is a wonderful mimic. So what's your take on that and where the ingredient trend and transparency is going, Martin?

Martin Habfast:
Well, actually, it's a crucial question because as this industry is expanding, we're switching from a consumer base that consisted of people that were really eager to try new products that had a very low neophobia and that were eager to try those products, even if they were imperfect, both in terms of taste and in terms of nutrition, also in terms of composition, right? And now, those are becoming mass market products. And as they are becoming mass market products, while consumers are less and less willing to compromise on not only taste, but also nutritional values and composition, so it's super important to live up to consumer expectations and to do that fast. Because if we, as an industry, don't do that, well, we might disappoint a lot of consumers that just won't come back.

Nicole Astra:
Right. That first experience. It's such a double-edged sword, because that first experience is so important to keep them coming back for more plant-based options. Tyler, do you find that consumers are resistant to mushroom?

Tyler Huggins:
Not at all. I think people are excited. Obviously, the category is very hot. The market is demanding alternatives to animal-based meat, but they don't want to do it in a way that sacrifices taste and the eating experience. And they want it to be healthy and deliver quality nutrition for them. I think the advantage of mushrooms, or in particular mycelium, the roots of the mushroom, is that it's just super nutrient packed. Again, providing all the same protein content that you would find in a beef steak. And so in a whole food, and I think that's super important. I think people are looking for something that is from the earth, that's all natural, and that's what mycelium is able to offer.

Nicole Astra:
And I've already told you, I'm such a mushroom fan and really think they have the power to transform the earth. So you're going to have to come back on the show so we can have a broader conversation about that.

Tyler Huggins:
Anytime.

Nicole Astra:
Jessica, I want to talk to you about some of the strategic partnerships. So you guys have had a very successful splash in the industry. And that R&D stage, that scale up stage, you had a unique twist and turn journey through your partnership, Jessica. So tell us a little bit about that and then maybe just some advice for those new voices in the industry who want to get to where the three of you have.

Jessica Schwabach:
Yeah, definitely. So it's been an interesting path for Sundial and I think not one that we've expected, but definitely one that we've embraced, where we initially started out of UC Berkeley. I met my co-founder, someone in a class. We worked on a group project together and that's how we ended up founding Sundial the following summer, initially focusing very heavily on university resources, but asking for help from everyone that we've met and sort of not being afraid to just reach out and try to find people who knew a lot more about the many, many things that we were completely clueless on.

Jessica Schwabach:
Through this kind of long-winded path, we got connected with a large strategic partner, a very large food company, which was running an accelerator program out in Europe, which was a bit of a travel for us. But we did end up joining that accelerator program and working to put Sundial's products through the resources of a much larger company and much more capable company already onto grocery store shelves within our first year since founding, which was a really interesting journey for us, kind of a crash course education for us as founders and how on earth we were supposed to run a food company and do things like handle food safety.

Nicole Astra:
And feedback sooner in the process than normal.

Jessica Schwabach:
Absolutely. The most important thing we got from this test was understanding how consumers were going to react to whole cut concepts on the market, whether or not it was something they actually liked and who liked it. One of the most important things we saw is that meat eating and flexitarian consumers were very enthusiastic about the product and about the appearance of it, especially on the shelf. And that vegans and vegetarians were not afraid to tell us, "Please stop. I just want to eat beans." So that was a good thing for us to learn that we really know who we should be focusing on with these kinds of products right now. Moving on from that, we kind of headed back into the university exploration phase.

Jessica Schwabach:
We were working out of IndieBio in the Bay area, a biotech accelerator in San Francisco, earlier in 2021, and ended up getting into a collaboration with Rutgers University, which is the state university of New Jersey and has a really unusual program of being able to help startups go from this odd intermediate phase of we are definitely beyond the bench scale, but we're not ready to move into our own facility or into a larger co-manufacturer yet. And so they've been helping us get through that intermediate scale up and hopefully launch product very soon.

Nicole Astra:
Martin, you're a little bit farther along in that journey. What strategic moves have you made by way of partnering that's gotten to you where you're at?

Martin Habfast:
Look, I think partnerships are crucial not only to [inaudible 00:10:34], but to the industry as a whole. This industry is moving so fast that what we've seen is large food corporates that would traditionally do everything in-house, they've started opening up, right? And actually, sometimes even creating open innovation departments from scratch, just because they couldn't keep up with the pace of innovation in this industry, right? And so today, what we are witnessing is that the industry is getting tightly packed with interconnections between companies that are actually doing innovation together. So we see that really happening and we are actually pretty much at the core of that, right? Because we focus on one specific thing, which is protein texturization, meaning that we don't really do flavoring. We don't even sell the product to the end consumer, and we don't do protein extraction. We're really just a small part of the chain, an important one, but really just a small part of the value chain. And we partner with companies all along the value chain to make the end product happen, and I think it's just absolutely crucial.

Nicole Astra:
Tyler, how about from your perspective?

Tyler Huggins:
As far as the partnerships?

Nicole Astra:
Yeah.

Tyler Huggins:
For us, we're similar to Jessica, two technical co-founders inventing a new novel technology, but didn't really know a lot about the food space. For us, it was most important to bringing in top talent, industry experts, veterans in the food space. And bringing them in-house was crucial. Food safety, manufacturing, scalability, sales. Food is definitely its own category, obviously, and its own specialty. And I think we've done a really good job of bringing in a mix of bold sort of hyper growth startup experienced folks and industry food veterans. We just hired Scott Tassani, who stepped down as the president of General Mills. And when your mission is to feed the world, there's no better way than to bring someone on who's actually done that before.

Nicole Astra:
Right.

Tyler Huggins:
I think we're really well positioned to scale, and it's definitely through the experience of people who have been in food before.

Nicole Astra:
So much great at advice, you guys. Part of our audience really is the startup crew who want to learn from our guests. And so a lot of great advice there. Thank you for that. So tell us again, Future Food-Tech's going to be in San Francisco. We didn't hear if Tyler or Martin said that they know what's on the menu for that cook-off. Can you tell us yet?

Tyler Huggins:
Stay tuned. I know our executive chef is going to pull out some fun stuff. We'll definitely give people a sneak peek on some of our innovation pipeline. I think that's one of the huge advantages of what we're doing is that we can spin out new products quite fast and easily. And so I think we'll pull out a few of our favorites and show folks what we can do.

Nicole Astra:
Martin?

Martin Habfast:
Yeah. Well, it's definitely going to be something around our core innovation, which is a plant-based chicken breast. We've been focusing heavily on that product for two years now. There are maybe 15 people working full time on it. Now, what we're exactly going to do with it, I'm unsure. We'll have to see with our own chef how to embellish the product and make it most enjoyable, but it's definitely going to be around that one product.

Nicole Astra:
And the possibilities are endless and that's what's so exciting. And you know what? If I know chefs, they're going to have something prepared, but then be inspired. And so the week of, it's going to change anyway.

Martin Habfast:
For sure.

Nicole Astra:
Listen, I want to thank you guys. Our audience didn't get to hear the conversation before we started rolling, but you are, in essence in this space, competitors. And at Future Food-Tech, it's going to be a friendly competition. But I really just want to thank you because what we find is that we're all working towards the same goal of a sustainable, secure future. And so I'm so appreciative that you guys are willing to come to the table together to give advice and to really root for each other and pull each other along on this mission. So thank you so much for your time today, and we look forward to your education and cook-off at FFT.

Tyler Huggins:
Absolutely. Thank you. Pleasure to be here.

Martin Habfast:
Thank you so much.

Jessica Schwabach:
Thank you.

Nicole Astra:
Thanks, everyone.