Nicole Astra:
Welcome to Talking Plant Protein. I'm Nicole Astra, and my guest today is joining us from Edlong. She's the global director of innovation and commercial development. Please welcome Anne Marie Butler.

Anne Marie Butler:
Nice to meet you. How are you?

Nicole Astra:
I'm very well, thank you. Of course, we do want to know how you're going to be involved in Future Food-Tech San Francisco. But before we get there, Edlong has been involved in dairy for many, many years, and you don't just deal in plant-based. What I'd like to find out from you is, when did your partners, your customer, really start focusing on plant-based alternatives?

Anne Marie Butler:
I'm in the lucky position that I work with all of our customers globally, but when plant-based kind of took off, which I believe was around five years ago, I was based in Europe. And our European team have probably had the first stage ... For the first time ever, trends really took off in Europe as opposed to them starting in the US, I think, for plant-based. So, we saw a lot of our customers reach out and go, "We're looking at doing a plant-based milk and we need it to taste more like dairy."

Anne Marie Butler:
And it's really interesting because as time has gone on, we've seen an evolution in the types of profiles people are trying to target. So early on in plant-based, it was very much about replicating, whereas now it's finding the balance between really honoring the plant-based products, but still giving some of the sensory pieces that are associated with dairy without making it taste too like dairy either.

Nicole Astra:
And we call it the Holy Grail. I always joke that way, but people love their cheese. And when we do talk about mimicking, if it doesn't have that same stretchy, melty property and mouth feel, are we going to be able to convert them, right? So those, of course, are some of those initial challenges I'm sure you have tackled and come a long way in the last five years, but what's on the horizon in R & D for the challenges that the dairy sector's facing?

Anne Marie Butler:
I think of all the areas, cheese is probably the most complex one, because it is, like you said, a luscious ingredient. People really want to sit down and feel like they're enjoying something really decadent, and it has so many points at which you'd eat it. It could be breakfast, lunch, dinner, it makes no difference. It's just the one thing that people are not willing to sacrifice at all on. So, I think the sector for plant-based cheese, where we're looking at is you had the original, which was the analog type of starches, vegetable fats proteins. And it was kind of what was expected from plant-based cheese. And as we're seeing the need for more, like you say, mimicked versions, we're seeing more functional ingredients being brought in, more nutritional parts being focused.

Anne Marie Butler:
But what's really interesting is the texture piece and it's really difficult to achieve. And so far, very few have been able to achieve it. But I think with the influx of lab-based proteins, we're seeing a lot more strides towards that authentic texture. We're still not there, and I think the importance of the ingredients cannot be understated. So, it's not just about getting the protein right. It's not just about getting the fat right. It's about getting everything together in the right balance so that the flavor and the taste comes through most authentic way so it's not peaky, it releases in the same way, and no one ingredient is vital. They are all extremely vital, and how they interact.

Nicole Astra:
And are you crediting the current success to fermentation?

Anne Marie Butler:
I think a lot of strides were made on the early stages as well, but I think fermentation has helped an awful lot. I do think, though, as people are getting more familiar with new proteins, and starch companies have made strides as well, and even the fat companies, it's not ... There was a time when it was just, you had your option of palm, or you had coconut, or you had blends. But I think fat companies have become so innovative and so respectful of what they're trying to achieve that we now have products where you can use a fat that really mimics dairy.

Anne Marie Butler:
What's interesting is how the legislation is playing out though, because there's ingredients that are approved in Europe, which very much mimic dairy, so shea butter and blends, but it's still not here in the US yet, but give it time. And those all help because if you think about the type of fat, how that melts in your mouth, how that flavor works with it and releases, it's so key to how it should taste.

Nicole Astra:
Well, and this then does lead to the conversation at Future Food-Tech. You're joining some very well names in the industry on the panel to talk about that overall sensory experience. And you know, everyone will say, "We're going after those same things. And as we achieve one, then the other isn't at that same level, and vice versa." And not only those ingredients, but the cost effectiveness, and then of course manufacturing and scaling up these discoveries. But what more can we expect from that conversation in San Francisco?

Anne Marie Butler:
Well, I think it's going to be really interesting because the focus is around plant proteins, but I do think plant proteins are only one part of the solution. So, I think we're in for a very robust discussion on what people see as the most important element and what kind of applications as well we're going to see. Because we've talked about cheese, but I think yogurts, milks, everything is still open to evolution with the onslaught of new ingredients.

Nicole Astra:
Are you finding that any of your partners are using byproducts as well? I mean, this is kind of a side conversation, but you know, when you're mentioning other dairy products, and so the byproducts of that we've seen are being put back into nutritious and palatable products. Are you seeing some of that on the ingredient end?

Anne Marie Butler:
We are, but I think it's a case of utilizing the byproducts to see how functional the product can become. It's not enough for it to just be used. It has to be usable. It has to be processable. It has to bring something. And I think that's the journey we're on is seeing those ingredients and how they evolve, because I think even being in Future Food-Tech three or four years ago in the UK, and there was some really interesting new ingredients coming out that were developed from byproducts, and those have changed so much since then. They've just improved so much, because I also think plant-based isn't a trend anymore. There was that kind of ... a few years ago where people were, "Is this just a trend? Are we going to see this fizzle out?" And it hasn't, so there's been more effort and more enthusiasm put around those ingredients.

Nicole Astra:
Yes, definitely mainstream, and that's why Future Food-Tech is so important, that billions of dollars going into this industry and we need to hear from and learn from people on the front lines like yourself. So, over a hundred years in the business, Edlong is a family company at their heart. Where else are you involved? You maybe can't say the customer's names exactly, but what other sectors, just so people understand the breadth of what you do?

Anne Marie Butler:
Our flavors are used in massive amounts of applications. We're talking things like snack foods, potato chips, mashed potatoes, frozen pizzas, ready meals. One of my favorites, and one of the most interesting, is even pet food. So, we have the breadth of applications under our belt and experience in working in all of those, but also in ensuring that we are able to understand the processing associated with those, because it's only one part to say you have a solution, but it's only a solution if it works in the production.

Nicole Astra:
That's right. That's a good perspective. We're so appreciative of your time today. We look forward to seeing you in March. Thank you.

Anne Marie Butler:
Thank you.